Welcome to week 12 of the Crushing it in Real Estate Podcast! This week we welcome Cliff Tsang, a fellow Gabrielino High School alum investing in out of state rental properties from the SF/LA metro areas. Through his cash flow investments, Cliff has been able to leave his W2 job and pursue a full time career as a real estate investor and agent. Join us this week as we dive deep into Cliff’s journey into real estate!


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00:02 Intro: Hey everyone, and welcome to another episode of Crushing Real Estate with Bryan Pham, where we interview real estate professionals around the industry. If you enjoy this episode, please subscribe to the show and leave a very positive review. We release an episode every single Sunday, so stay tuned. Enjoy.


00:22 Bryan: Hey guys, welcome to another episode of Crushing Real Estate. Today, we have Clifford. Clifford is a real estate investor here in the San Francisco, Bay Area. Clifford came from a W-2 background, he’s currently a full-time real estate agent and he owns 30 rental properties across the United States. Clifford, welcome to the show, man.


00:47 Clifford: Hey, Brian. Oh, this is awesome. Good to– thanks for having me here.


00:52 Bryan: Definitely dude. Hey, Clifford, can you kind of jump into how you got started? And tell us a little bit about yourself?


00:59 Clifford: Yeah, so, in terms of my real estate background, I got started, well coincidentally my dad helped me purchase my first unit. 


01:11 Bryan: Okay. 


01:12 Clifford: This was a townhouse in the Los Angeles suburbs, in a city called San Dimas. 


01:17 Bryan: Oh, wow. 


01:18 Clifford: And actually, even before we jump into that, we should do a quick little shout out, Bryan and I we both went to Gabrielino High School in San Gabriel. So, got to shout out the 626.


01:28 Bryan: Best high school in 626.


01:29 Clifford: Yeah. And so yeah, that townhouse was my first glimpse into being a landlord. I wasn’t that actively involved with it, my dad kind of helped manage it. But I did start to learn, kind of through osmosis, what that process was like, and just seeing, “hey, you know, we have to send out the lease, get it returned to us”. Also, just the rent collection process and dealing with turnover with tenants. And then from there, this is now jumping forward to about 2016, I just started getting really fascinated with bigger pockets, learning about the industry. And I took the plunge and bought my first single family home. But it was in Philadelphia, and so fast forward. Oh, no. Yeah. Go ahead. 


02:15 Bryan: What was that feeling like, buying your first property on your own?


02:20 Clifford: It was pretty scary. Yeah. Especially being out of state. But at the same time, I was just really excited about it. And, I knew it was a good learning opportunity. You know, I think, even still in my life, like a big philosophy is just learn, learn, learn as much as possible. So, I knew if I made mistakes along the way, you know, it’d be a good chance for me to course correct and get it.


02:45 Bryan: Definitely. Tell us about that first property. How did you find it? How did you fund it? How did you run the numbers? Like, how did you do it Cliff?


02:56 Clifford: So, I narrowed down my focus to Philadelphia, kind of an investment thesis on the city of Philadelphia in general is the last major East Coast City that hasn’t had kind of a real estate revival.


03:07 Bryan: Oh, wow.


03:09 Clifford: Boston, Washington, DC, Manhattan, New York, Miami, you know, all those places, pretty expensive real estate costs. And so, I figured, okay, Philly could be a good opportunity. And luckily, that was a city that I used to cover in my old job in tech. So, you know, once a quarter, we just had a pretty good feel for the city. Then the next couple steps, find a real estate– an investor friendly agent, who, coincidentally is someone that I keep in really close contact with, like he, I mean, we talk probably once a week, once every two weeks, just to catch up on like real estate deals. So, it’s awesome to have like, it’s crazy to see the relationship that you can just build with a stranger on a bigger pockets’ forum. 


03:54 Bryan: So, you found your real estate agent in bigger pockets?


03:58 Clifford: Yeah, that’s right. Yeah. 


04:00 Bryan: So, you just post in the forums? Be like, “Hey, I’m looking for real estate agent.”?


04:02 Clifford: Yeah, I think I did that. But also, I think I just kind of snooped around like the Philly sub forum. All like who was posting frequently, who clearly had some market knowledge stood out to me. So, then I reached out to like two or three agents, gave them all a call, and I got the best feel from my agent, Jeremy.


04:24 Bryan: I like that a lot. I also do actually do the same trick too. Every time I want to explore a new market, I always post in bigger pockets, “Hey, like, is there any real estate agents in this area?”.


04:34 Clifford: Yep. And it’s a good way to work with clients. Also, you know, very quickly, you can get a sense of like, “Are they an expert in their field?”.


04:46 Bryan: Definitely, you can kind of get a feel in the first couple questions, you know? If you ask them about which areas give rentals? What’s the ROI? IRR? And if they can answer those correctly, if they say something ridiculous, like, “Oh, yeah, I think the cap rate over there is like 4%, that’s like the normal rate, and you’re like, “The hell? Do you even with investors?”.  You know? It’s funny, I would say a lot of residential realtors I’ve dealt with, I think they’re not too familiar with cap rates. 


05:15 Clifford: Yeah. 


05:16 Bryan: Or when you talk to them you feel, I felt that sometimes their knowledge about kind of the investing side is a little bit superficial. So, it important to dig in and ask those questions. 


05:27 Clifford: But at the same time, I think someone who’s good at finding a deal doesn’t always know the investment side of the process, like real estate is just so broad, there’s a full spectrum of things to know. And, you know, you could find a good agent that can find good deals, but they might not necessarily know the cap rate, and all the math behind it, and that’s fine, too. 


05:46 Bryan: Okay, well, that’s a different approach. But I like that. That’s cool. So, you found your real estate agent through bigger pockets, and you got your first property through him, right? Through him or her?


05:59 Clifford: Yeah. Exactly. We saw a few deals that were on MLS and then we made an offer and moved forward with it.


06:06 Bryan: Wow. How did you pick your neighborhood? I know Philly is pretty big. Like, there’s different neighborhoods, that’s totally different from every other street, like, how did you decide that neighborhood? And how did you run numbers?


06:18 Clifford: Yeah, it’s a good question. So, that neighborhood, is kind of like, if you know, the San Francisco area, it’s kind of like the Marina of Philadelphia. It’s kind of like, not a boujee area, but it’s a nicer kind of suburb area, that had a lot of younger folks like right after college, young professionals and young families. That to me was really appealing because it’s constant renter pool, and also folks that might not be looking to purchase. So, there’s a strong renter population to income levels, like on the higher end as well. So, it’s like a B class neighborhood. And then in terms of running numbers, I just have a pretty quick and simple model that I run all of my purchases through. It takes like, 5 minutes to fill out, purchase price, renovation costs, property tax, insurance, property management costs, and then we have a pretty strong sense of what IRR will be on a five- or 10-year basis from there.


07:18 Bryan: Okay, that’s really cool. I’ve heard you mention that you purposely picked an area with good income and a strong renter base. I think that’s a mistake that most people make getting into out of state rentals, is that they look at, you know, the crime rate, the schools, but they forget to see if it’s a strong renter market, you know? 


07:36 Clifford: Yes, yes. Oh, and yeah, good point. Yeah, like crime rate. You know, population growth, migration into that neighborhood, you know, all of those are important numbers to check. 


07:49 Bryan: Okay. Wow, that’s really cool man. Because I think when the first time, I hopped into my first deal as well, I couldn’t sleep, I couldn’t eat. I was like, I was telling myself, like, even if I lost all my money, I’ll still be okay, because I’m relatively young. I was wondering if you went through that kind of mindset too? Like, you know, all that fear uncertainty, you know?


08:10 Clifford: Yeah, I mean, I think that’s natural, especially when you’re dealing with real estate. It’s not like buying a candy bar, and if you don’t like it, you throw it away. It’s like, you cannot give up big chunks of money, especially at our age, probably a good portion of your network, you’re deciding like, “Okay, let me invest this”. 


08:26 Bryan: Yeah. 


08:28 Clifford: I think it’s natural to be scared. And that’s like another option too, which is, if you’re nervous about doing that first deal on your own, there’s always the option of partnering, which I think is a really worthwhile one. 


08:39 Bryan: Definitely man. Can’t wait to jump to the other bigger partnership deals in the future, you know?


08:46 Clifford: Yeah.


08:48 Bryan: So, when you first started your real estate career, you know, you started with your dad, and you purchased your first property and then you purchased one on your own, at what point and what year, did you decide, “hey, like, I want to go for something bigger. I want to find more partners to take down bigger deals”, like how did you make that leap from single family to multifamily? Because I know for most people, that’s a big challenge, man, how did you do it?


09:14 Clifford: Yeah, I think a lot of people who– I think the path that I’ve been on has been like a very common one in the sense that folks muster up the courage to like, get in their first deal. And it’s likely a single-family home, because, you know, that’s what you can afford or feels like, a good one to kind of learn the ropes with. And then you do a few of these, like, we ended up, you know, between me and my wife, we own like eight single family homes. And then it’s like, “Okay, well, you realize the way to scale this up, is to get into multifamily”. I think that was a natural progression. So, it was just part of my goal for 2019. I remember just sitting down at the end of 2018, and going, “Okay, if I feel like real estate is a lucrative field to get into, and I kind of feel like I know what I’m doing at this point. I need to scale this up”. And I just started to talk to everyone that I know about real estate. And coincidentally, one of my friends from college reached out, you know, a month after I talked to him, and he was like, “hey, if you want to partner on something, let’s go for it”. 


10:12 Bryan: That’s so cool. 


10:14 Clifford: Yeah. I mean, that was just so unexpected, but really kind of opened my eyes to the idea of partnership. And that’s been really fun. So, we bought a 20 unit in Charlotte, we closed out a few months ago. And then we’re closing next week on a four unit in Kansas City. 


10:29 Bryan: Congratulations, man. Those are pretty big moves.


10:33 Clifford: Thanks.

10:35 Bryan: I know that partnerships are relatively hard. I mean, did you have any idea what partnerships would be like entering to one? Like, how did you guys have that? You know, that gut feeling when you’re about to partner with someone you’re thinking like, are we compatible? Essentially, I think partnerships are like, another marriage essentially, when you’re married to a person, you make decisions together. Like, that’s a really hard part of real estate or anything you do, you know? Like, did you like bet him or you just went with your gut? Or did you know him that well, that he could really trust somewhat? How’d you make that partnership connection?


11:10 Clifford: Sure, sure. And I noticed you mentioned another marriage, are you already married and have another partnership marriage?


11:18 Bryan: It come with each deal, right? I’m always married to different people. 

11:24 Clifford: No, you bring up a good point. Like, it’s another scary leap that you have to take when you partner with someone, because you don’t control the whole process anymore. You’re now working with someone very, very closely. And you have to make sure that not only your mindset aligns, but also the work that you’re going to be putting in, or if they’re just going to be bringing in cash, or you’re only going to bringing cash, making sure that that’s clear up front. And, you know, once you get into business with someone that’s like, you know, it feels kind of like a marriage in some ways. But this partner, I mean, I knew him in college. And we’re in the same kind of business club. And we’ve just been, we’ve been friends ever since. So, a lot of people say don’t invest with your friends, I’ve found kind of the opposite has been true, which is your close friends that you invest with, you already trust them. Hopefully, you have the same mindset and also business goals. So, a lot of that kind of is already cleared, and then just being cool with the other stuff really helps make the partnership workout.


12:21 Bryan: I like that you brought that up too. Because I agree with that statement. Like, I can’t really partner with someone, if I don’t really know him that well. It’s this uncomfortable feeling. Because you’re putting so much money in like the project with someone else that you don’t really know, you don’t really trust, I think that’s a generational thing. You know, because I think like the older mentors always tell me like, “Don’t work with your friends”, but I feel like our generation and younger, like we want to work our friends. Like, I think that’s the best way to go.


12:53 Clifford: Yeah, I’ve had a really good time. I mean, it’s only been like four or five months at this point. So, maybe we’re still the honeymoon phase. But, you know, I think the one thing that you need to be clear up front too, is like holding period. All these investments, we’ve been clear, like this is a 5 to 10-year hold. I think you can get into a tricky situation of someone is like, “No, I want to sell within a year or two”. And you’re like, “I want to keep this investment”. But even in your contract, like in our operating agreement, there’s protection, where it’s like you can buy the other person out at the market value of their, you know, portion of the equity. So.

13:30 Bryan: As for your operating agreement, did you draft it up yourself or you hired someone to draft it up for you?


13:36 Clifford: We, for the first one, we used an attorney. 

13:39 Bryan: Okay. That’s good. I think that’s the best way to go too. I think for all all my operating agreement, I also use an attorney. I talk to other people about their scenarios, but not using attorney and things always go sour, one way or another, you know, and then they don’t know how to make the split. So, they can–

14:05 Clifford: Exactly, from my understanding of how operating rules get drafted. Like, if you don’t have a strong template that an attorney has already vetted and you’re going about it on your own, you’re putting yourself up to a can of worms that it can be torn apart pretty quickly by a seasoned attorney. You know, if you’re creating it brand new on your own.


14:23 Bryan: Yeah, definitely man. Hey Cliff, as you mentioned before, like you made the transition over from a W-2 to become a full-time real estate investor and real estate agent. What caused that move? What was that mindset like? 


14:40 Clifford: A couple things. I think one motivating factor was just really enjoying working in real estate. It’s been six years. You know, six years, I’ve been involved in this industry, and I haven’t gotten tired of it at all. Like, I get energized when I wake up, I really enjoy this field. And the other piece was thinking, “How do I spend more time?”, because in terms of finding deals, as the market gets a little bit more, you know, saturated with investors, and having a schedule flexibility is super important to be a good real estate investor. I might as well just go full time into the real estate field. I spend most of my week on the realtor side for sure. But having that flexibility to look for deals has been nice. I also like the big part of just working in corporate America, I worked, you know, in investment banking before I worked in tech for the last seven years. Not feeling fully fulfilled, wanting to just carve my own path, wanting to do it my own way, you know, and if it doesn’t work out, it doesn’t work out. But at least I set my own terms, and I’ll do the research and put in the hard work. And hopefully it’ll work out.


15:55 Bryan: Yeah, I like that, too. I think that was also my mindset as well. I felt really trapped inside W-2. And it’s like, I’m out for something bigger, you know, and being in real estate, you get full control too, you can kind of dictate how your life is heading. Like, you can kind of dictate who you want to work with, who you want to talk to, who you want to interact with. That’s the cool part of it. I guess the next question is, how did you end up picking the rental niche? Because I know real estate is such a broad field, you know, like, a lot of people I talk to, they always have the shiny object syndrome where they’re like, “Oh my God, it’s new, oh my God I’m buying a home”. Like, dude just pick one, you know? Pick one, whatever field you pick, just get really good at it. And then you’re going to make a lot of money in each niche, but how’d you end up picking like the out of state rental or rental niche?


16:51 Clifford: Yeah, kind of goes back to my kind of investment kind of thesis and philosophy a little bit, which is, if you’re fortunate to live in a high– or I guess unfortunate to live in a high cost place like San Francisco, but fortunate that salaries are relatively high. My investment philosophy has been, “take your dollar here and invest in other American cities”, like I’m bullish on America, as the economy as a whole, the real estate market in America as a whole, take that money and invest it in other places that cash flow and have some strong potential for appreciation, but I never bank on appreciation, kind of always, cash flow is like the main thing. Specifically, for rentals, like, it’s just me, thinking about mitigating risks, like we target B and C class neighborhoods for rentals, and co working spaces, commercial real estate, all these other things are possible. But I think with that potential higher return in those other sectors or niches, there’s just more risk and everything that I’ve read about rental units, it’s like that B-C class spot is kind of the sweet spot in the sense that the economy turns and there’s a recession or something is going to be coming down the road. Like, I hear the phrase, “we’re closer to the top than we’re to the bottom”, for sure. We’ve had a bull market for the last, you know, 6,7,8,9 years. That niche of B-C class rentals, I think should hold strong relative to the other niches. 


18:20 Bryan: Yeah, I agree. 


18:23 Clifford: People always need a roof over their head. And if you’re targeting A class rentals, like those people will shift down as their income, you know, gets shrunk, they become B class but that B-C class is always kind of your bread and butter for renters. 


18:37 Bryan: Okay. Yeah, I like that a lot too. That’s kind of also the reason why I’m attracted to rental properties is, you know, it’s– I feel like it’s a economy shelter kind of feeling. Whereas like, no matter how the economy is going to go, people are going to need a place to live, and, you know, you see other other niches as well as real estate development. And like real estate flipping, you’re like, “man”, like, that’s you look at them, and the amount of money they get really quickly, it really entices us, as you get the shiny object syndrome, you know, “oh, my God, we actually do have this and this”. But I like how you stay focused, you know, like, I don’t get that from a lot of people I talk to, you know, it’s always, “I want to try this or try that”. But for you, you’re like, “I know, this is a good path. I’m going to stick to it. I’m going to get really good at what I do”. So, I like that a lot, you know?


19:26 Clifford: Yeah, I think it’s with anything, you know, like, you want to develop some expertise first, before you branch out? Kind of, you know, you have your hand in a lot of different cookie jars, but you’re just super strong at one. You know, the rental property game, I think, is a good base to build off of too, for valid cash flow for someone. And then from there, they can get into more like, commercial or other, you know, what I think is a little bit riskier. To get higher returns, like have your base, then branch out a little.


19:57 Bryan: So, let’s kind of jump into your commercial acquisition. Did you say you could acquire a 20-unit property in Charlotte, with your college roommate? How did you go about acquiring this deal? Did you fly out there to check out the area first? Or how’d you make this deal happen?


20:15 Clifford: We had a short list of cities that we had researched, kind of based on what we were talking about earlier population growth, job growth, strong employers in that area, strong rental market in Charlotte was on our shortlist. And we just booked a flight out there. We were both kind of between jobs at the time. So, we’re just like, “okay, let’s just go for it”. And I just booked a bunch of meetings with either property managers, residential real estate agents, and a couple commercial brokers. And one of the commercial brokers had a deal for us. And at first, same thing, we were really nervous. We’re like, “okay, he just met us. How can you have a good deal for us?”. And, you know, we just did a bunch of due diligence, and then we toured the property that day. And then right before flight, the next day, we also stopped by again, also doing a drive by at night too, you know, it gives you a different sense of the neighborhood. When we got back home, we ran the numbers, and we submitted an offer at what we felt comfortable. And then there was some negotiation back and forth. Because the deal, at first, the seller said, “No way”, and we had forgotten about the deal. And I think it was about a month and a half later, I got a call. And he said, “Hey, are you guys still interested?” and we had it within 30 days. Kind of just another testament to staying in your strike zone, running the numbers and no stretching, because you don’t want to push yourself just to get your first deal.


21:38 Bryan: Yeah, you don’t want to force anything. I always tell people in a tough economy, or you know, whenever you feel like the recession is coming, try not to be too creative. Creativity only means the deal is it’s not that good. And you’re using too much your emotions to make the investment. If it is a no brainer like “daah”, then it’s a good deal. 

22:00 Clifford: I’m sure you’ve gone through this too, where you’re like running things in your underwriting model. And you’re like, “Okay, well, they can say it should be this, but if it drops to this..”.

22:08 Bryan: Exactly, don’t compromise. 

22:12 Clifford: Yeah, that’s when it gets dangerous, you know, you need to really, really diligent and strict with yourself in terms of what you want.


22:22 Bryan: So, what kind of cap rate were you getting this property for? Or what kind of cap rate do you usually aim for when you acquire like commercial properties?


22:29 Clifford: This one was in the high sixes. So, and cap rates, you know, it’s just like anything kind of relative to the market. So, we felt like it was a good deal because cap rates in Charlotte, near downtown are in the high, you know, in the fives, low to mid fives, and we felt we were getting a relatively good deal on this. And that was a current cap rate, it could go up to seven, seven and a half. That’s another thing to be cautious of, is like this cap rate. When you see these pro forma cap rates from the commercial broker, make sure you run your own numbers because they’re very optimistic with their numbers.

23:13 Bryan: Even, like, even if you get the deal for your close friends or anyone else, make sure you always run your own numbers like. I always tell people, I don’t trust anyone else. You know, you have to see the numbers for yourself and run it yourself. Everyone can make a mistake, or someone’s too optimistic. Like, you have to see the numbers for yourself. And for this property, did you do any forced appreciation to it? Or did you just, got it in good condition and rent it out for market rates?


23:45 Clifford: Oh, yeah, we need to do some renovations on two of the units. None of them have been renovated in the last 14-24 months.


23:56 Bryan: So, you got 18 units in good condition? That is a good deal.


24:00 Clifford: I think we got a pretty good deal on it, because we had to move on it quickly. Okay, so during the– we kind of did a reef eye on it afterwards. It was for about 200 grands more than what we purchased it for. 


24:13 Bryan: Wow. So, at least you got all your money back.


24:15 Clifford: Yeah, we’ve cashed out a good portion of the equity already. So..


24:21 Bryan: So, you mentioned that you had to move fast, did you purchase the property with hard money? Or did you just?


24:26 Clifford: We didn’t use a hard money lender for this, but we did purchase it on cash.


24:29 Bryan: Okay. Wow. Congratulations, man. Sounds like you’re doing really well. We can talk later.


24:38 Clifford: Partnering is the key.


24:42 Bryan: So, you mentioned that you did real estate for six years now. How do you keep yourself motivated every day? Do you have like a morning routine? Do you have an affirmation schedule that you follow? Like, how do you keep yourself so motivated?


24:56 Clifford: I love this question. Because, yeah, motivation, like just in life is just a really interesting thing. You know, I say for me, one key thing is just having like a really lofty goal, yearly, and also just like one that’s hanging over my head, like I’m at 32 units right now. I want to get to 100 units, with the next three years. And it’s one of those things where, at the time, it might feel kind of like a impossible mountain to climb. One step at a time will get you pretty darn far in life. And then, just to stay motivated. I mean, these are like really simple tips, I’m sure everyone knows about this. But, you know, I found for me personally, like, everything starts with going to the gym. Like, once I go to the gym, and feel like I’m in a healthy physical mindset, everything else falls in place. And also getting like a lot of good rest, like, I just started doing this in the last couple months, which is if I feel tired, like, I’ll just find a time to try to rest my eyes for 15 to 30 minutes, even take a quick nap, and just being fully regenerated to like, go attack the rest of the day. Having your daily goals, your big time goals, you know, going to people say like, “knowing your why”. And my why is like, trying to, by the age of 40 feel like my wife and I, we can kind of fully retire on income. 


26:23 Bryan: Yeah. There’s no doubt that you guys will be able to do that, you know, the path to you’re going like, it’s only a couple more years before you totally take off, you know?


26:32 Clifford: Oh, I hope so. I’m going to make sure she listens to this, and so she knows that we’re on a good path.


26:40 Bryan: Definitely. That’s the cool thing about real estate too. You know, you work, you work, you make little progress every day, and eventually, it just compounds, and you just move really, really quickly, you know? Because the thing about real estate is you never know when the next deal is going to come in. Sometimes it can all come in all at once, and you’re mentally ready for it, and you take in all of it. You know? That’s the cool part. Or sometimes when you’re mentally ready, or there’s no deal, you’re like, “Ugh, where is this going? What am I doing?”. That’s when your motivation, your self-belief kicks in you like, “okay, like, just continue doing it, like it’ll all pay off”, you know? Yeah, so I like that a lot man. So, if you were to start over your real estate career over again, what would you do differently?


27:27 Clifford: I think I would have partnered earlier. I think that’s one thing. But I think even before that, I would have just talked about real estate, to my friends, and get them in it earlier, you know. I think early on, I think I had a sense that I was learning a lot, but I was shy to kind of broadcast that. You can only imagine like, if, instead of having done eight deals, then I started talking to people, if at the starting point I started just, you know, not in an arrogant way, very humble. Just saying, “hey, I’m into real estate”, and talking to your friends about deals that you’re finding. You’d be really surprised that the people who would want to partner up and join from you, and also folks that just want to listen too, and one of those things that, you know, when you teach people, not only do you reinforce what, you know, but it helps you maybe find, you know, other people to work with in the future, too. 

28:26 Bryan: Yeah, I agree with that man. That’s something I think about the like, if I was started earlier, but then like, everyone moves at a different pace. You know, real estate investing is such a huge mental hurdle for most people, as they’re going through it, it’s like you have to grow as a person to be able to make these conversations and feel good about what you say and what you preach and what you teach, you know? So, now I agree with that, like, starting earlier is always good, but as always, that you factor, you know, like you have to be able to become that person first, before you can help other broadcast things.


29:06 Clifford: Yeah. I hear you on that. Because it’s like, it’s easy to say, I wish I got started on something earlier. All those kinds of steps are what made you who you are today, right? And it’s hard to rewrite, think about rewriting history, because then everything would change. 

29:20 Bryan: And also, I think you’re doing really well already. You know, most people can’t say, “I left my W-2 job to become a full-time real estate investor”. But here you are. Real estate agent and real estate investor, living the dream dude. Most people want to be in your position. 


29:38 Clifford: I think every guest on your podcast, Bryan is just trying to get to your level to be honest.


29:42 Bryan: No, I’m trying to get to everyone else’s level. Cliff as we’re approaching the end of the show, so I want to talk about what’s your favorite book? What was that book that was a breakthrough for you that you’re like, “Oh, my God, I always refer to it? I always tell people about it. I’m super motivated. Because I because I read that book”. What’s your favorite book?


30:07 Clifford: Does everyone just say Rich Dad, Poor Dad for this one?


30:11 Bryan: No, I mean, I got a lot of good input from that book, I’m not going to lie.


30:15 Clifford: I would say in terms of real estate investing, one book that I’ve read through and plan to reread, you know, every year, I have a bunch of highlights throughout the book. It’s the millionaire real estate investor. Yeah, it’s just like, has a cheesy title. But man, there are just some really, really good nuggets in there.


30:36 Bryan: And it’s by Gary Keller, right? 


30:37 Clifford: Yeah, exactly. From the founder of Keller Williams brokerage. And it’s just one of those books that if you are motivated, and literally follow all the steps that are in that book, you can be a successful real estate investor, you know, and like, just on that note on books, like I think just books are just so important for folks to be, you know, absorbing, reading through, you know, remember, and I don’t know the quote, exactly, but it’s like, “the dumb person will not learn from his or her mistakes, the average person will learn from his or her mistakes. And then the really smart person is learning from the mistakes of others”, you know, and it’s like, the resource is available to us, even out your pockets and books and all this. It’s just the literature out there is just amazing, you know, and for the folks who are motivated, it’s crazy.

31:29 Bryan: Yeah, I agree with that man, like, I like that too. Because every time I go out to networking events, and I talk to people, and it sounds really, really weird. They always ask, “what mistakes have you made? And how did you learn from them? And what happened?”. And you know, those are things I like to hear. Because when it comes down to crunch time, and it’s down to making that decision, you’re like, “Oh, my God”, you refer to, not the good things, but the bad things like, “this person did this and that, I did this and that, alright, let’s not do that again.”. That’s how you save yourself a lot of pain and money as well. I appreciate you taking the time to be in the show. So, how can we find out more about you? How can our listeners reach out to you Clifford?


32:13 Clifford: Yeah, I think the easiest way is if you’re interested in reaching out, just shoot me an email. My email is Cliff, C-L-I-F-F.tsang, my last name, T-S-A-N-G, That’s the best way to reach me. If you want to talk about investing, we’re looking to buy or sell property in the Bay Area.

32:38 Bryan: Awesome. And, I’ll also include his email in the show notes as well. Cool. Thank you for being on the show Clifford. Appreciate it, man.


32:46 Clifford: Okay, thanks, Bryan. 

32:47 Bryan: Yeah, thank you. Alright. Bye.