Annie Dickerson is one of the co-founders and managing partners at Goodegg Investments, a company that helps people learn about and invest passively in group real estate investments called syndications. Annie and her husband Joe (who was featured on episode 10) started investing in real estate over ten years ago.

She and her business partner, Julie Lam, created Goodegg Investments because they wanted to help other busy working parents build passive income so they could spend more time with their families. To date, Goodegg Investments has co-sponsored over $700 million of real estate assets and have helped hundreds of investors build wealth for their families through real estate.


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[0:02] Intro: Hey everyone, and welcome to another episode of Crushing Real Estate with Bryan Pham, where we interview real estate professionals around the industry. If you enjoy this episode, please subscribe to the show and leave a very positive review. We release an episode every single Sunday so stay tuned. Enjoy.


[0:21] Bryan: Hey guys, welcome to another episode of Crushing Real Estate, this week we have Annie Dickerson. So, normally I would talk a little bit about Annie, but her resume is so extensive that I’m going to let her introduce herself.


[0:33] Annie: Oh, stop, Bryan. Well, I’m super excited to be here. I love the whole message behind Crushing it in Real Estate And that’s exactly what we set out to do. I am a co-founder of a company called Goodegg Investments. Me and my business partner Julie Lamb, we’re both busy moms and we set out to help other moms and other parents to create passive income for their families through investing passively in real estate through real estate syndications, which are group investments. So, we got together about a year and a half ago or so, to really set off on this mission to help educate people about what syndications are. And in that time, we really got off to a pretty fast start. And in the year and a half that we’ve been in business, we’ve done almost 25 real estate deals mostly large scale multifamily in Texas and the southeast, and we’re doing mostly multifamily and we’ve co-sponsored about 5800 doors at this point.


[1:52] Bryan: Holy moly.


[1:55] Annie: We don’t sit back and relax. We crush it, we’re going to crush it.


[2:01] Bryan: Oh, yeah. So, I also want to add that Annie just publish her book, syndication, so Annie, how can our listeners find out more about this book?


[2:07] Annie: Yeah, absolutely. So, our book is called Investing for Good, The Surprising Strategy for Building Wealth While Also Making an Impact. And that’s really what we wanted to impress upon people, was that when you invest in real estate, it’s different from when you’re investing in stocks or mutual funds where your money is just, actually when I invest in stock, I don’t actually know where my money is going. And, you know, it’s like, if I invest in Facebook, you know, is it contributing to, you know, better Facebook ads or a better Facebook feed experience, I have no idea where that money goes. But when you invest in real estate, you really have the opportunity to make an impact in these local communities. So, it’s a win-win for everyone involved. So, that’s what the book is all about, it’s about how syndications work, how people can get involved and the impact that they can really have on these communities. 


[3:12] Bryan: Definitely, yeah, really excited to check out that book myself. So, I’ll be searching for it after this podcast.


[3:20] Annie: Sweet.


[3:21] Bryan: So, Annie, if we were to take a step back to early in your real estate career, can you tell us a story of how you got started?


[3:27] Annie: Yes, I would love to, because it was completely by accident. I never thought I would get into real estate. In fact, growing up, I only lived in apartments. My parents never bought a house the whole time I was growing up and I never even, it never even occurred to me, like somebody owns this apartment building that I’m living in and they’re collecting these rent checks that we’re writing every month. It just never, I just never thought about that. And so, it it was after college, my husband and I had just gotten married, and we set out to buy our first house, we were living in Washington DC at the time. And being young and hip, and we were like, let’s buy a loft, or a condo in Adams Morgan or one of the other trendy neighborhoods in DC. But thankfully, we had a wise real estate agent guiding us and he said, you know, you could do that but in DC, there’s also these, these row homes are very popular. And some of them have two units in them


[4:36] Bryan: So, what exactly are row homes?


[4:37] Annie: Yeah, good question. So, if you think of a town-home, you know, where there’s like one home right next to the other, there’s no space in between them, it’s very common in some of the northeastern cities, like DC, Philadelphia, Boston, because, you know, there’s just no space so they pack all the homes together. And so, we then thought, ah, you’re right, we could buy a row home and our agent said, you know, if you buy a row home, you could live in one unit, and you could rent out that basement in law suit. And you could start collecting rent, and that could help pay off your mortgage. And we have never heard of this before. And we were like, wait, wait, you mean, somebody else could help us pay our mortgage. And so, we really glommed on to this idea. And so that was our first experience was through house hacking. And we didn’t even set out to get into real estate, we were just like, oh, cool, we bought a house with two units. Okay, well, that seemed to work, let’s buy another house with two units. So, we kept house hacking these duplexes, every time I saved–


[5:45] Bryan: How exactly did you guys finance these houses initially?


[5:49] Annie: Initially, we got in with an FHA loan, so we put in, just, I think we put in maybe 15,000 on that very first property. It was an almost $500,000 home, but we were able to put in very little, of course, we had to pay mortgage insurance. But the rent, our tenants help to offset that.


[6:14] Bryan: Definitely. Can you explain to our listener what is an FHA loan and how does it work?


[6:19] Annie: Yeah, yeah. Okay, you might have to help me, it’s been a while. An FHA loan is typically for first time homeowners. It allows you to put as little as 3% down on a home. So that, you know, it’s a program, it’s a federal program to help people to buy homes.


[6:40] Bryan: Okay, so yeah, Annie’s pretty much on point. So, FHA, usually is used by first time homebuyers, but at the same time, you kind of reuse it over and over, but you can only allow only one FHA is allowed to your name and a time, to essentially buy an FHA house, a refined to a commercial loan and do it again next year. But the only condition with FHA is that you had to live in the house for a year. So, it has to be owner occupied.


[7:04] Annie: Right, right. Yes. I remember that now. Yeah. Now that I think about it, maybe I should try an FHA loan again.


[7:14] Bryan: It’s extremely powerful, especially in the more expensive market in the Bay Area. It’s highly effective to knock down these $1 million duplexes and triplexes.


[7:22] Annie: Oh, yeah, absolutely.


[7:24] Bryan: Okay. So, going back, so you bought a row house with your husband and you’re like, okay, let me get other people to essentially pay your mortgage and you kind of became a landlord through that and how did your process continue from there?


[7:38] Annie: Yeah. So, then, we continued to house hack these duplexes for a number of years and then it wasn’t until a few years ago, you know, my husband is a real estate agent now. And he, I realized one year that he really could use some help with his websites, online marketing, put it nicely. So, I was working as a creative director at the time and I thought I’ll take on this side project. So, I took it upon myself to redo his website and in the process, I learned more about real estate investing myself, even more than he knew. And at this point, I realized, holy cow, I need to quit my job and focus on real estate investing because I could make way more money here than I am at my job.


[8:31] Bryan: What were you doing before?  


[8:33] Annie: Well, I was a creative director in the instructional design space, creating courses for companies. And so, nothing to do with real estate. In fact, I started out as a fourth-grade teacher then went into game design and then went into instructional design, never had real estate in my mind. Never. And, but at this point, I had done some research and realized how powerful real estate investing could be, but I didn’t even have to syndications, I didn’t even know what syndications were at this point, I was just like, okay, we need to buy another duplex. And then I realized that’s not going to happen because now we live in the very, very expensive Bay Area and it’s just crazy to lug around not only our kids but have to spend all this money. So, we’re like, okay, that’s out, let’s invest out of state. So, that surely you know, we’ve done these house hacks, we could do an out of state rental property, it’d be easy. I’d done all the research and followed all the rules and we quickly invested in 20 plus doors in Huntsville, Alabama, which I had done all this research and identified Huntsville as an emerging market. And so, we had these 20 plus doors, and we’re like, yeah, this is great, all these cash flows coming in and then it wasn’t. So, we realized that investing in developing areas is very different.


[10:02] Bryan: Very different.


[10:03] Annie: House hacking, where the tenants are much like us, they have jobs, they tell us when things go wrong, they pay on time, sometimes they pay early. Whereas with these tenants in these out of state properties, you know, they were living paycheck to paycheck, were stealing things, sometimes they were vandalizing the properties. There were always questions from our property manager, you know, this person said, they got into a car accident, they can’t pay for another week, do you want to evict them, you know, things like that, that we were not prepared for. So, along the way, you know, we were sharing with our friends and family what we were doing, and they wanted to get in. They wanted to do what we were doing. But as we explained the process, they realized how many steps there were to actually, buying an out of state rental property. And they said, forget it, that’s too hard. But then I thought there has to be some way for us to help people to invest in real estate with our experience and our connections and that’s when I found out about real estate syndications and started down the path of trying to do my own syndication. I thought, how hard could it be? I’ve done a four unit, I could do a 40 unit, it’s probably the same thing.


[11:24] Bryan: The mindset,


[11:26] Annie: Right, right. You’re like it’s just a number, it’s just a different number of units, it’s the same concept. But I had no idea that the world of syndication is completely different, the process of investing is completely different, commercial loans are very different, all of that. So, then, I had the opportunity by chance to raise money for somebody else’s real estate syndication. And at first, I said, heck, no, I’m not going to raise money for your deal, raising money is the hardest–. Exactly, that’s what I thought. It’s like raising money is the hardest part of the whole thing. Why would I want to raise money for your deal? But then this person explained to me, well, you know, this is a great opportunity and by raising money for this opportunity, you are still the only point of contact for your investors. But what you’re telling your investors is that you can give them access to great opportunities. So, then I thought, huh, yeah, you’re right. So, I gave it a chance and as soon as I started, I realized I loved it. Because raising capital is all about Investor education. Remember, I mentioned that I started out as a fourth-grade teacher because I’ve always been passionate about education, especially teaching people about concepts like syndication that are only, traditionally have only been available for a select group of people. And so, through raising capital for this deal, I realized that I didn’t want to do the whole syndication myself, I just wanted to focus on the raising capital piece. And that’s what we do now.


[13:13] Bryan: That’s pretty insane. If you talk to all syndicators, most certainly raising the capital part. Yeah, I’m starting about it. I know you’re going to be successful. You know, you’re excited about the hard things, everything else is easy.


[13:25] Annie: Yeah, exactly. Well, I feel the same way is, I look at people who are out there looking at, you know, meeting with brokers and going to the properties, playing golf with the brokers, schmoozing and, then underwriting the properties and doing the asset management, I look at that, and I think, holy cow, that’s so much work, you know, so that’s the power of partnerships. And when Julie and I came together, we had very complementary skill sets and anytime that we partner with other sponsor operators, it’s because we bring something to the table that they don’t want to do or can’t do and likewise they bring something to the table that we’re missing as well. 


[14:08] Bryan: Wow, that sounds really great. Annie, for our listeners, so Joe Dickerson is Annie’s husband, has been on the podcast in earlier episodes, if you want to check out more tips and ideas in house hacking, please listen to podcast, sorry shameless plug. And what Annie mentioned earlier about out of state tenants with problems, I completely understand my eight unit is also in a developing area in Columbus and let me tell you, it hasn’t been easy.


[14:37] Annie: Tell us a horror story, tell us something that’s an unexpected surprise or–


[14:44] Bryan: Okay, I have one story so okay. My new property manager calls me, he’s like, okay, I have something to tell you. I’m like, what? I walk into one of your units and the ceiling is missing and I was like, what? How do you take off the ceiling? So, he says we have a very gigantic hole in the roof. I’m like, I don’t understand what is happening. He looks, he calls me, he’s like, yeah, I don’t understand either. And the next day, he texts me, he’s like, hey, would you want to file a police report? I was like, what’s going on now? But it turns out like one of the units I evicted, he tried to break into the other unit next door, through the vents, he try to crawl through the vents to break to another unit. I was like, bah, I have never going to buy in a C class neighborhood again.


[15:29] Annie: Right? They are so creative. Like, I think they’ve got like time on their hands and they’re like, how can I, you know, like we’ve had a similar situation where we evicted somebody, or we tried to evict them. And the day before the sheriff was set to show up, they stopped up all the sinks and tubs and their toilet in their unit, left the water running and took off and it flooded, not just their unit, but three out of the four units in that fourplex. And so, it’s like, sometimes I’m just like, I got to give them some kudos for their creativity, feeling that is something else. 


[16:05] Bryan: So, my new partners and I, we work together and they’re like, do you want to still invest in C class, Bryan? I’m like, no. I already pay the extra for the premium for tenants.


[16:16] Annie: Exactly. I’m with you.


[16:20] Bryan: Yeah, so that’s that. So, Annie, can you kind of walk us through, how you find your syndication deals and walk us through like what it takes to become a great syndicate like yourself and Julie?


[16:30] Annie: You know one of the things that we always tell people is, because we are not on the ground in these markets, looking for these deals, we are looking for the teams who are on the ground in these markets, who have those relationships with the brokers. So, we are really, our hard work is finding those teams who have a strong track record but who also need partners like us to help them take down these bigger deals. And so, that’s what we’re always looking for. Oh my gosh, it’s so hard. It’s so hard because, you know, you said earlier, right, that a lot of syndicators don’t, they’re intimidated by raising capital. And it’s true when we let people know that we’re capable of raising money, everybody comes out of the wood works and they’re like, oh, you know how to raise money, I got a deal for you. Everybody is like, look at my deal. And so, it’s incredibly hard to separate out those people who have experience and integrity and a track record from those who are just starting out, who may to–


[17:51] Bryan: Do you talk to every single one of these individually that give you a holler, hey, I have to create a deal. Like I’m dealing with a similar problem where I’m constantly, like deals after deals, but it takes up too much time. So, do you have a system or process that you kind of work towards? For myself, we have a VA, that all emails go to her, she filters it, she does quick, dirty numbers like okay, we’re okay, it makes sense, I’m going to talk to that person. Otherwise like there’s, if there’s no screener, like you’re getting, like 100 hundred emails, 100 calls a day, but how do you handle that?


[18:23] Annie: Oh, absolutely. You know, and I used to, I think, Julie’s better about it than I am, but I will give anybody the time of day. So, I used to be like, oh, sure, let’s hop on a call, you know, and it was just taking up too much time. And so, these days, usually we’re looking for referrals from other people that we know, other sponsors and operators. So, we typically don’t, we wouldn’t consider doing a deal with somebody who just emailed us with an opportunity because it would take too much time to get to know them. And typically, and here’s a trap that many new syndicators fall into is, we see a lot of people who contact us with their first deal. They’re under contract on this great apartment complex that they’ve underwritten and they, but now they’ve got like, maybe 60 days to raise the money. And they haven’t talked to a single investor yet, or maybe they’ve just started, and they realized they can’t raise a million dollars in 30 to 60 days. And so, now they’re scrambling, they’ve done all this work upfront, they’ve put in their money, and they’ve got this deal under contract, but they don’t, they can’t see a clear path to closing the deal. And we see that all the time. So, with newer syndicators, you know, we always recommend, start with the capital first. Yeah. People always try to start with the deal, and we say, no, you got to start with the capital first because that takes a longer time. Think about it, right? Like to get your friends and family to invest $50,000 with you, that’s going to take a lot of conversation, answering a lot of questions, right?


[20:16] Bryan: I absolutely agree that one.


[20:17] Annie: Yeah. So, we tell people, but people don’t know how to do it. They’re like, well, how can I possibly talk to friends and family, if I don’t have a deal on the table? And so, we always say, well, you don’t have to have a deal on the table. You just tell them what you’re up to and then you create a sample deal deck, and you take that to them and you say, well, I don’t have a deal right now but if and when I do have a deal, it’s going to look something like this, let me walk you through it, answer all their questions up front, and remind them so that they get to a point where they’re like, okay, the next time you happen to go like this, I’m in. Then you get a list like that and now you have got a list of let’s say, 10 people who will invest with you so now you’ve got $500,000 in your back pocket.


[21:05] Bryan: Holy moly.


[21:06] Annie: And that completely changes the situation, when you go to talk to brokers, you’re confident that you can now bring that money to the table. So, it’s a completely different situation.


[21:17] Bryan: So, what kind of questions and concerns do this potential private money, what kind of questions do you have when they ask you?


[21:24] Annie: They don’t ask any questions; they’d know it all. Oh, man, we get all kinds of questions. You know, I think the most common question is around protecting their money, right. I think people, the first questions that people always ask, are, when am I going to get my money back? So, they don’t even care, like most syndicators, they launch right into projected returns, right? Like, look how much money I can get you over five years, but the newer investors, they’re thinking, well I have this thing over here called my savings account. I put my 100,000 dollars in my savings account in five years, that money is still going to be there. So, that’s the benchmark that they’re comparing your opportunity to. In their mind, they’re thinking, well if I take this 100,000 dollars out of my savings account and put it into this thing with you that I can’t log in and see, how do I know that I’m going to get that 100,000 dollars back? 


[22:32] Bryan: Yeah, I think that’s what drives most private money people crazy, it’s like, they can’t see their money, you know? And I don’t know how you deal with it but when I get private money, I always get constant tax, like how’s it project doing, like, can you send me pictures and you almost feel like an odd banker in a way, where you’re just like, oh my god, like this is your last dude. How do you respond to that kind of questions and stress like–?


[22:58] Annie: Well, that’s, we do a lot of that education up front before we release a deal. So, we do most of our work with our, educating our investors in between deals when we don’t have a live deal that we’re raising for. That’s when we let them know what to expect, we teach them the process and to your point about those nervous investors, you know, we let them know exactly what to expect, once they wire in their funds. So, once you wire in your funds, you’re going to get a confirmation from us and then you’ll hear from us when the deal closes. And then after that, you will get an email update from us once a month, sometimes with pictures but definitely with things like the current occupancy and the latest updates that we’ve done on the property so they know going in, to expect once a month email updates from us.


[23:54] Bryan: Okay, wow. So, once a month email updates, can you kind of walk us through how your structure and how you do your payouts to investors, is it quarterly, bi-weekly?


[24:03] Annie: Oh, bi-weekly, that would be great, looks like a paycheck, right? So, most of our investments pay out on a monthly basis and typically the projected returns are our in 8% preferred return and I’ll come back to that in a second, per year, 8% preferred return per year over a span of five years, with an additional about 60% at the sale of the property. So, let me walk you through it with $100,000 investment example. So, if you were to invest $100,000, now over a five year old period, so what would happen is, I mean, well, let me first explain, over that five year period, what we’re doing is, over the first two to three years, we’re going in and renovating all of the units in that property. So, typically we’re buying like 200 plus unit apartment buildings. So, right when we buy it, there’s a certain number of units that are vacant, so we start there and we upgrade those units and then as leases come due, then we offer to move those tenants into the newer units for a little bit of a premium. And usually they’re ecstatic to see these new finishes and these new floors, new kitchens, and they’re more than happy to move into the new units. And so, then we go in and turn over their vacated units and it’s almost like a domino effect, you know, one by one, we’re going through to renovate all the units and it takes about two years. So, then, after that two years, we’re really, I mean, at that point, we are technically ready to sell, and we’ll be watching the market to see when, is a good time to sell. And so, we say five years, to give us a little bit of a buffer period, to set investor expectations. So, with that 100,000, you’re investing 100,000 dollars today so, you’re expecting to keep that 100,000 dollars in the investment for the entire five years. It’s not a liquid investment so you can’t just pull it out, at will but you will get those monthly distributions that add up to about 8000 per year, which comes out to about $667 a month. And then, on the back end, so at that five-year mark, when we sell, you’d get your 100,000 dollars back, and then you get another about $60,000 in profits. So, all together you would have gotten $1,000 per year over five years, which was 40,000 plus the 60,000 on the back end. So, we’re basically aiming to double your money from 100 to $200,000 in five years.


[27:00] Bryan: Wow, that was a great thorough breakdown Annie, I absolutely love that.


[27:05] Annie: I’ve done this a time or two.


[27:10] Bryan: 27:10 [inaudible], they always confused me. What’s the payout structure again? 


[27:14] Annie: Oh, that reminds me, I wanted to go back to the term preferred return because I mentioned that. So, an 8% preferred return means that the first 8% of any returns go 100% to the passive investors, the general partners, the sponsors don’t get any of that first 8%, it’s only after and above that 8%, then we typically go to a 70/30 split, 70 to the investors, 30 to the sponsors. And then if it hits an even higher threshold, typically around 14% IRR, then we’ll split it 50/50. So, what this does, is called a waterfall structure and what it does, is that it really aligns the interest between the passive investors and the sponsors who are those general partners who are operating this deal. Because those sponsors would not go into a property if they didn’t think they could at least make 8% because then they wouldn’t get paid. And the fact that we have this waterfall structure in place, it really incentivizes the sponsors to work as hard as possible to get those returns as high as possible, because that means they get paid more.


[28:34] Bryan: Wow, that’s also a really good definition as well. 


[28:38] Annie: I told you, I was a teacher.


[28:41] Bryan: I love it, I love you Miss Dickerson.


[28:45] Annie: You know, I’ll tell you a funny story. I used to teach fourth grade and when you know, my last name is Dickerson and one day one of my students came up to me and snickering, Miss Dickerson, do you know you have a word in your name? I’m like, what name, tell me? And all the kids are like laughing in the corner.


[29:14] Bryan: It is. So, right now I want to switch gears a little bit and find out more about you, Annie. So, can you tell us what is your biggest source of motivation? What keeps you driven every single day? And what keeps you going when you, you know, working on a deal or not fundraising money, like there’s a lot of in between time, you know, how do you keep yourself motivated on a daily basis?


[29:37] Annie: You know, it comes back to the mission and vision of what we set out to create with Goodegg Investments, which is, you know, we really wanted to make these opportunities available to people who had never heard of them before. Moms who are out there, who are working their asses off, every day they’ve got a carpool to take care of, they’ve got a full time job, they’ve got to commute, you know, they’ve got to get dinner on the table, they’ve got laundry to do and they just don’t know another way. And it always comes back to that mom, and how we can get our message out there to more people so that we can reach her so that we can reach all the moms out there who are struggling, who have worked very hard to save money and they don’t know any other way besides the traditional paths of 401K and investing in the stock market. They’ve just never heard that there’s another way. So, it always comes back to, you know, every little thing that I do every day, builds, you know, builds the business a little bit more and gets us one step closer to being able to reach all those moms out there.


[30:53] Bryan: Wow, I love that message a lot. How about for yourself, do you have any kind of morning routines or rituals that you follow?


[31:00] Annie: Bryan, I’m an on again, off again, kind of a person. So, for a while there, I was doing great, I would get up at 5am in the morning and I, you know, I would have the whole, you know, the Miracle Morning Routine, I would do the whole thing. And it was great, I felt great. And then, you know, for a while, I’d fall off the wagon and I’d sleep in. So, you know, at the moment, I’m sort of at the fall off the wagon phase, where it’s sort of in a crunch phase in our business, we’ve recently launched a course called real estate accelerator that helps people learn to do what we do, namely raise capital and scale their business so they can do bigger real estate deals. A part of launching an online course is, there is a ton of work to do. So, that’s what I’ve been focused on the last several weeks, is creating content for that course.


[31:57] Bryan: I love it. I mean, I have somewhere on my desk like that, she created a course to like, flip houses and invest out of state. Props to you, I bet it’s a lot of road mapping and getting it done and–.


[32:12] Annie: Here’s my tip for you, we’ve now created two online courses. The first one was for passive investors and the second one is for people who want to raise capital and syndicate. And the first one, we followed all the rules, we built the course and then we did the, we build our list, and we drift content to our list, over time, we did live webinars, and then we opened the cart, expected everybody to sign up and plan to close the cart within two weeks and launch the course. And so, it was a huge undertaking, but not very many people signed up. And at $1,000 price point, you know, we didn’t make very much money for all that time and effort that we put in. So, this time around, we completely, we broke all the rules. We said, okay, we’re not going to build this course yet, let’s figure out if people will actually pay for this course first. So, we put together an outline for the course and a sales page for the course and then we just started talking to people that we knew who might be interested. And we sold the course first, even though it’s only a shell of a course we didn’t have anything yet. But we started getting signups and then we said, okay, guys, we’re going to launch on this date. And so, one of my favorite quotes is from Shonda Rhimes, who writes for TV and she says, “writing for TV is like, laying track for an oncoming train”. And it’s the same when we’ve sold a course and now, we have to build it, the trains are coming. So, we got to get the course done, there’s no other way these people have already paid us. So, it’s a gutsy move, but it’s also good for us because we have no way out, we have to get the course done.


[34:09] Bryan: Yeah, I mean, this is the second time I heard that, to be honest. The first time I heard it is when I went to TEDx with Grant Cardone Grant Cardone will be like, okay, I want you guys to sell first and build the product later. And then after he started promoting TEDx three or four slides, he was like, I was going to start selling this event, but I don’t have the venue booked yet.


[34:31] Annie: I love it. Well, I guess we’re on the right track if Grant Cardone is telling people to do it too.


[34:38] Bryan: Yeah, I mean, that sounds like a pretty good sales model to me. Hey, Annie, as we’re approaching you know, the end of the show, what is your favorite book that super inspired you and created that aha inspiration moment?


[34:53] Annie: One of my favorite business books is called Building a Story Brand by Donald Miller and it, I read it at a perfect time in our business. We were trying to figure out what our messaging was, and we had a website, but it wasn’t really stellar, I kind of just threw some things up there that I thought people might want to read. And building a story brand is really about how your business, it aligns your business trajectory with a story arc. And so, typically, businesses think that in a story, the business is the hero of the story. They are saving all their customers, right, they are making the impact. And so, if we’re talking Star Wars, then the business is the Luke Skywalker. But what building a story brand talks about is, no, it’s actually your customer is the Luke Skywalker. They are the heroes in the story, they see themselves as the hero of the story, they see your business as the Yoda, the guide. And so, you have to position your business as the guide in the story and so that completely changes all of your messaging. So, now if you go to our website, you’ll see it’s all about you, it’s about how we can help you to reach your goals. Before we were talking about this is how a real estate syndication works and these are the projected returns that you can expect and it just, that doesn’t resonate with people. They want to know how your business will change their lives. 


[36:31] Bryan: I agree with that. And then I forgot where I saw this quote from Sao Paulo says, if you help enough people achieve their goals, you achieve your goals in return. 


[36:40] Annie: Absolutely. 


[36:41] Bryan: Just like that, I love it. Yeah, Annie, so how can our listeners find out more about you? How can they reach you?


[36:48] Annie: The best place to learn more about us is through our website, And you can always reach out to me anytime at


[36:59] Bryan: Great, awesome, Annie. I’ll also include that on the show notes. Thank you for being on the show. I really enjoyed it. Thank you. Thank you again for sharing all your knowledge.


[37:08] Annie: Of course, I had a great time, always love meeting other people who are crushing it in real estate.


[37:14] Bryan: Awesome, alright Annie, thank you.